Listen in to a conversation between Anton Kraly and Jim Cirillo about lifestyle design, building an eCommerce community in Chiang Mai, Thailand, the future of eCommerce, and more!
This is a repost of an episode where Anton was a guest on JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to check out Jim's show and leave him a review on Apple Podcasts!
It's a long episode, but a lot's covered in this in-depth episode.
Here is What's Covered:
Links From This Episode:
Anton Kraly: Hello everybody, Anton Kraly here from eCommercelifestyle.com and welcome back to the show. In today's episode we're going to do something new, something I've never done before. I guess you can call this a repost and what I'm going to do thanks to Jim Cirillo is share an episode of his podcast where he interviewed me as a guest. And the reason I wanted to share this because I'm a guest on a lot of podcasts, but the reason I wanted to share this one specifically is because I thought the conversation was just really interesting when it comes to really lifestyle design and the whole digital nomad scene. And kind of the backstory of Drop Ship Lifestyle, which you probably know from dropshiplifestyle.com.
Anton Kraly: And Jim's podcast is called JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast. So I do want to let that this is not purely an eCommerce show, so know that going into it, but I think that's a good thing. We can switch it up. And also if you enjoy this podcast, definitely go onto Apple Podcast or whatever you use to listen to podcasts and search for JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast. On his show he interviews all different types of people, either professionals, entrepreneurs or creatives.
Anton Kraly: And what he talks to people about is how they've re-imagined their success and made a pivot by using this new digital age that we're in, all these new technologies. So we do talk on that, but again, we go deep into the whole scene out in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where I lived for years and how Jim became part of it. And it's just really interesting story. So check it out. I hope you get a lot of inspiration and learn a ton. Thank you again to Jim for letting me share this episode and making it possible. With that being said, guys, let's get into the show.
Jim Cirillo: Hey everybody. Here is JimJim and welcome to episode 56 of JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast. And I'm talking today with Anton Kraly and we're talking eCommerce lifestyle. So Anton, welcome to The Revolution.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, thanks Jim. Happy to be here.
Jim Cirillo: Hey. Well, really, thanks for jumping on here today with me. And since I started the podcast, which has been, gosh, I guess a little bit over two years ago now really one of the reasons why I pivoted into doing the podcast was because I started with eCommerce and this goes back to I think 2016, almost about two and a half, three years ago now. When I thought, hey what, maybe I want to start exploring some more online stuff or digital stuff. And I came across the Drop Ship Lifestyle, which is one of the businesses that you're running.
Jim Cirillo: And got me thinking, okay, maybe I should look into this stuff. Anyways, it kind of brought me back to 2016 when I started with DSL. I thought let get a little crazy, try some experiment with some things online. And it got me motivated to go to one of the retreats you are having. So that was the first time I think we encountered each other was back in 2016 in Hawaii, at that retreat.
Jim Cirillo: So just in preparing, thinking about, I was going to talk to you this afternoon, kind of got me remembering those days back in 2016. But also most recently in 2017 was the last time I saw you because I was at the retreat in Playa Del Carmen and it got me like a chuckling laughing at myself because I remember being down there, I don't know if you remember this story, you heard this story back then. So we were staying at this nice resort and it was kind of out by itself. Like I can't remember the name of the resort. It's super, super nice wherever you had it. And I was on the third and fourth floor in the hotel and it went out in my balcony early in the morning. I hope remember this?
Anton Kraly: I do.
Jim Cirillo: But I got locked out on the balcony and I didn't know there's all these monkeys down there and the balcony just happened to be right at the right height where it was at the top of the trees. And so all these monkeys were like coming at me because they were curious whatever. And it was like, I think when I walked out there I think maybe I'll better close the door behind me because I know the monkeys are out there. They might want to like come in my room or something. And I had no idea that it was the doors going to lock behind me. So I was out there for almost an hour because I was up early. It was like 6:30 in the morning and no one was-
Anton Kraly: Surrounded by monkeys.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, surrounded by monkeys. Oh in my underwear. So I was like, Oh man, if I don't get down from here. I'm going to have to go to the bathroom at some point. This is going to be like super embarrassing and weird.
Anton Kraly: I like you said, it's kind of secluded to some of the rooms. It's not even like people just walking by every five minutes, especially not at 6:00 AM you're just out there.
Jim Cirillo: I was just out there by myself. I thought I'm going to have to wait like two and a half hours so anyone wakes up and walks by. Yeah. It was really like unnerving and I'm thinking like maybe I could jump down now, like I'll probably break my wrist. Anyways, it just reminded me because when I first discovered the monkeys actually brought my horn with me and I was out there, I thought what, I got to get some practice time man. Because I was being on the road and stuff, I always bring my horn and I had no idea there were monkeys down there. And the first time I encountered them was I went out there on the balcony to play a little bit. And like after just like 30 seconds, I just heard all these rushes of the monkeys shooting right at me, like right at eye level because they were like very curious to hear like what does that thing we've never heard before the saxophone.
Jim Cirillo: Anyways, so it was wild, wild times, but all right. It's a long winded story, but the reason I wanted to bring it up was that in terms of like experiencing Drop Ship Lifestyle or the things that you've been able to create or thinking about the eCommerce lifestyle in general, I think DSL is one of the most interesting things I've experienced most recently, but probably in my overall business career too. And that it's something that's designed around lifestyle. And I think that's part of to me the reinvention revolution that is available to everybody now in terms of getting connected online, it's presenting all these different opportunities for everyone to kind of go after what they want. Maybe be a solopreneur or entrepreneur of some sort.
Jim Cirillo: So can you describe first of all what Drop Ship Lifestyle is or what eCommerce is and how you think about it?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, sure. So Drop Ship Lifestyle is an online coaching program. I started that in 2013 and that was after probably the end of 2011 I had sold a network of stores and I was looking online for like eCommerce communities and other people to connect with that were doing something similar.
Anton Kraly: And I found that there was no good information out there online. So I kind of just started posting and at that point I had already been in eCommerce since 2007. Yeah, 2007 so I've been doing it a while already, had experience and thought if I can't find any good information out there, let me just share kind of how I approach doing things like picking products to sell and doing market research and building websites and getting traffic and hiring virtual assistants. So that's what Drop Ship Lifestyle is. It's evolved a bunch of different times since it originally started back then.
Anton Kraly: But that's what it is basically, it's our business model that we've been using probably since 2009 is when I originally transitioned into dropshipping. But like you said the whole reinvention thing and different paths that you could take and that are available kind of the way that for me eCommerce came about and the way that I started was not part of my plan at all.
Anton Kraly: Back in 2007 when I first got started, it was actually when I was just out of college and I was thinking that I was going to be like a traditional, I'm doing air quotes here, like a traditional entrepreneur. I was going to open offline businesses. I was going to work 100 hours a week. I was going to build them and sell them and build wealth through entrepreneurship, but in the real sense of being a slave to the business.
Anton Kraly: And I got pretty lucky just like most people that stumbled upon this whole thing did. But I read a book back then, The 4-Hour Workweek when it first came out, introduced me to eCommerce, said, hey, you could build a website for $29 without being technical, without knowing how to code, which was great because I didn't know any of that.
Anton Kraly: So yeah, I spent a weekend, I built my first online store and within a few weeks it was making more money than my first offline business. So I was like, okay, I like this. I don't have to drive anywhere. I could work from my home and I'm making more money than I would if I actually ran this offline business, I had that cost me 25 grand to start.
Jim Cirillo: I see. Wow. So what year was that? I think the The 4-Hour Workweek came out maybe in 2007. Does that sound right?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, I think it came out early 2007. I think it was probably the end of 2007 when I launched my first store. But yeah, it was right when that book came out. I remember one of my buddies he was kind of like entrepreneurial minded also. He was like, "Oh, I just got this book. I just saw it, I think at borders or something. He's like, I read it in a day, you got to check this thing out. And I was like, "Okay, cool, I'll read it." And he just let me his book and read it.
Anton Kraly: And I was like, okay, what do I have to lose? And it's not an eCommerce book, so just everybody knows that there's a chapter, I think on eCommerce that is extremely outdated now. And there was a chapter on Google ad words, that same thing is extremely outdated, but that was enough to introduce me to the fact that anybody could do this. So I thought, again, what do I have to lose? I built a website and from there just learned through trial and error.
Jim Cirillo: Right. So at this point, how many years were you into this traditional career? Like you graduated from college.
Anton Kraly: I graduated in 2006.
Jim Cirillo: Okay so you weren't there for long.
Anton Kraly: Right after school. No, not at all. It was very early. So my plan, like I went to school, I went to college for the experience more than anything. I didn't want to miss that part of life, but I always thought I'd do something entrepreneurial. And just from like working odd jobs throughout high school and college, like I did landscaping, I sold Christmas trees in the winter and I just saved money and I had about like 20,000 saved. I borrowed like five more from my parents and I bought the cheapest business I could find, which by the way is a bad idea. Nobody should do that. Not a good way to invest money. But yeah, the cheapest business I could find. [crosstalk 00:10:03].
Jim Cirillo: That's saying something, right. Yeah.
Anton Kraly: Yes it is. [inaudible 00:10:06] I did that for a few months though, and that's when I read the book, the The 4-Hour Workweek and I was like, "Oh, why don't I try to take this offline business and bring it online and sell these things online?" So that was my like introduction to building eCommerce stores and my first product.
Jim Cirillo: I see. So I think that probably worked in your favor because it was before you were in a real track, I would say, or before your mind got kind of trained or trained in under a bigger, larger corporate business sort of mindset. So you're probably like, yeah, you still had very little to lose in terms of pivoting and trying that, which is cool. Which I think about my experience where I had worked in the corporate world. I mean I ended up quitting my job in 2006. When I got out of school, I worked for GM and Corning and corporate places and I was in the technology world. So I did come in contact with the venture capital scene and startups, but that's still kind of a very corporate kind of feeling way to work I guess.
Jim Cirillo: And you're right on in terms of like the intensity of, yeah, I'm going to work 100 hours a week and then I'll be able to cash out in three years if I worked for the right tech company and that kind of thing. And I was doing some of that, but I get got totally frustrated. This was around 2001 for me now. Like after the tech bubble burst, I was actually living in Boston in new England and ended up moving back to Ohio after that because I really didn't like Boston was too sort of aggressive and uptight is kind of a weird place for me, being from the Midwest originally, I think. If you're from the East coast, maybe it's different. I like New York actually. But anyways, so, but yeah, there was this intensity about it in a kind of and because I got laid off and I'd quit another job before it was like, this was starting to make me think a little bit differently.
Jim Cirillo: Like, what do I really want? Why do I need to do this or whatever. But I still haven't quite broken free yet until around 2006. I got frustrated again, quit my job and I was like, "Man, I got to really start thinking about doing something different." And it's curious. It's right around that same time around 2007, I should have read the The 4-Hour Workweek earlier. I didn't read it til it was probably 2016.
Jim Cirillo: So it took me a while. So anyway, I've been independent consultant on my own for a while, about 10 or 12 years, but I was still kind of consulting back to the corporate world. And I guess it's a long way of saying that I think what you've been able to build with the way you look at eCommerce and the trainings that you've built that you help people really help me in particular, kind of opened my mind or change my mind or look at the world differently. Just like the The 4-Hour Workweek does when you first read it.
Anton Kraly: No. And that's awesome. I'm happy to hear that. And that really is like talking again about the paths that we could take and choices. So from 2007 to through 2011, I didn't even realize that there was any education out there online or that there were like any type of meetups or groups. So that whole, what is it, four year period was literally me working on my own with my suppliers, with my traffic providers, with my virtual assistants and I didn't know anything else was out there. And around that time in 2011 I kind of face the decision of again, like what path should I take? And I saw like two options and one of them was to go the route that different huge eCommerce stores have went. So like CSN Stores which is now, Wayfair was a big one back then and then hayneedle.com which owns like over 200 niche specific stores as well.
Anton Kraly: I saw what they were doing and they, instead of what I was doing, which is building a couple of dozen stores, they were building hundreds. They were also renting gigantic office buildings where they were employing hundreds of people. And I was like, okay, like that's something I know I can do. Like I have the skills, but then thinking to lifestyle design, like do I want that? And for me it was a really easy decision that I don't want anything to do with being the person responsible for that or in charge of that or of being up all night thinking about that many employees.
Anton Kraly: And it wasn't, that's not the path I wanted. So that's when I had sold a network of stores. And I also thought, okay, instead of opening 200, 300, 500 stores, let me start sharing this information online. So other people out there like me could get information and actually have a system to follow where if they want to, they can work 30 minutes a day or if they want to, they can build 300 stores. But kind of give people that choice because I knew I wasn't going to be the one doing it all myself. I had no desire to.
Jim Cirillo: Right, right. Well, that's interesting because I don't think we can overstate enough like what was going on at those certain period of time, these years. Like now it's a little bit more obvious that you can kind of do some lifestyle design or this concept of kind of like not having a brick and mortar building or being more location independent. Like the whole digital nomad community kind of has popped up. But you were I think probably early guys were a pioneer in a way of all this thought process I think, or this thinking. What were the inputs that you were getting that made you think, "Man, this is the way I want to go and this is what I want to start sharing with people."
Anton Kraly: Yeah. So what I realized on the eCommerce side of things early on, I started literally selling the cookies and bakery products online and I was processing just tons of orders and I was making great money, but we had so many customers and I just thought like, this is my choice, right? I choose to spend more on Google ads to sell more cookies. I choose to get this massive column of new customers. And then my thought process with that was like, well wait a minute, if I could do this, why can't I just sell more expensive products and make just as much money but have a 10th of the customers. So I did do that. Then I just started back then I was doing market research differently, but I was using eBay back then and I was just trying to find the opportunities in more expensive industries and I'd found them and I spent another weekend and I built another website and I set up another Google ads account and what I thought could happen happened, I can get less customers and I can make more money.
Anton Kraly: So that mindset of, I don't want to say like doing as little as possible because that would imply like I don't work hard and I definitely do and I love this stuff, but the thought process of trying to maximize input to get the best output possible. So basically we're trying to build sustainable businesses while making as much as possible with minim effort. So for me that means selling products that are expensive. So I call it high ticket products. That means not actually trying to get all the traffic in the world to our websites, but getting only buyer traffic.
Anton Kraly: So like people that are credit card in hand, comparison shopping, trying to pick where they're going to buy from. And that means I focused on things like conversion optimization more than most people because I wanted to make the most out of the people that were coming to our stores. So I think, yeah, that was the thought process. Like, if I could work less and make more, that's what every decision should be based on. And they have been since then. I don't want say I haven't made mistakes along the way because I definitely have, but that's been the goal at least.
Jim Cirillo: Oh yeah. Well, to me that just speaks to my engineering mind, my tech mind, it's efficiency. Like why would you not want to be efficient? That makes total sense to me. And that's the thing, I really couldn't wrap my head around in the tech sector, for example, where it's like, why am I working 80 hours a week and I'm only making like a little bit of money basically relative to the hours that you put in? And it's like, yeah, I want to make $1 million an hour if I can. That's just efficient.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. Exactly.
Jim Cirillo: Right?
Anton Kraly: Yep. Definitely. Yeah. And then once you know that and like that's your thing that you're working towards, it really does make decisions a lot easier. So whether it's your business and whatever it is you're doing, if it's hiring people, if it's investing time or money into different areas, it makes it much easier to just say no to a lot of things and to put more effort into what you think will provide you with that benefit.
Jim Cirillo: Right. Absolutely. Okay. So you make that decision that it's like, hey, I'm going to go this way. I'm not going to build hundreds and hundreds of stores. You're going to focus on kind of efficiency, like we said, higher margin products, less intense sort of customer service. Because you don't have thousands and thousands of customers now, whatever. But why did you decide like, hey, I'm going to put together this training course, this sort of membership kind of site sort of approach to things where I think this was still early on in conceptually in doing this. I mean, I think you were one of the earlier guys that had this idea of creating this community. How did you get turned on to that?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, definitely there was other people doing online education and whatnot. But the direction that we took, it definitely was the first. But the reason I started it, it looks nothing like what it is now. And I never planned on it becoming a actual business. Basically what happened is after I had sold a network of related stores, I literally, it was like, okay again, this is before I even knew that there were like masterminds and forums and communities.
Jim Cirillo: Exactly, that's just recent developments.
Anton Kraly: Right. But, yeah, I was sitting there like okay now instead of working maybe four to eight hours a day, I was working like two hours a day with the store that I still had. And I was like, let me go online and see if I can find other people that are maybe a step ahead of me that I can connect with, that I can learn from, that I can maybe get some advice from.
Anton Kraly: Because I kind of was like just I didn't know what to do next. So I went to Google. I think I typed in eCommerce forum, or dropshipping forum, or mastermind and I just kept finding one website back then, which is warriorforum.com, which still exists. But basically what it was like before Facebook took over everything that was the place where Internet marketers would hang out.
Anton Kraly: With that being said, when I first found it, I was like, oh, this is awesome. There's all these discussions about this marketing thing that I do. But pretty quickly as I started to read through threads and conversations, I realized that especially the eCommerce ones, the people had just not really anything valuable to say. And it sounds bad, but like it was just, there was lots of contradictory information. It was things that I just knew were inefficient.
Anton Kraly: Ways people were talking about setting up ad accounts, different directories. People were talking about paying to use suppliers and I came at this, this is what I think was really helpful for me. I had done it first for again, four years. So looking at it, it was just clear like this is just really bad information. I think a big problem is if I was to find that as my entry point, I probably never would have been successful because I would have seen a bunch of bad information from people passing it off as this is what you need to do. I would have leaved it because why not? It's on the Internet and I would have probably built a business with a terrible foundation. So again, just by having that vision and just knowing it's not correct or bad information, I thought, okay, let me just start posting and responding to people's questions.
Anton Kraly: So again, not thinking this was going to be a business, literally just filling time. I was answering some questions on that forum. I was starting some discussions, sharing tips that I thought would benefit that community. And pretty much right away people started to reach out to me and said, "Hey, I saw your post on X, Y, Z, can I pay you for consulting or coaching?" And I had no desire to do that. So I just said no to everybody. And then I kept getting questions and then I figured you know what? Let me record a series of videos that just go through the same steps that we use in our eCommerce stores and let me, I put it on like a WordPress site and it was $3,700. I was like, if you want this, I made a bunch of videos, the quality's terrible, but it's what I do and you don't have to ask me all these questions.
Anton Kraly: And people bought it and people said, this is great. And people kept buying it. And then I saw there were some holes that I probably could've explained better. So I added to it. I made another version, built the community side of it, which as you know the community is a massive part of Drop Ship Lifestyle. So yeah, like the Facebook group and our forum started to build out. From there I saw people kind of had questions about things that I originally hadn't covered in the program, so kept adding to it. Then the big turning point where it went from like not a business, just something I enjoyed to a business was actually the first ever retreat that we did. And that was in Chiang Mai in 2014. So Chiang Mai, Thailand. And the reason that changed everything is because up until then, all of the interaction I had with members was online.
Anton Kraly: And when I saw people in person and we had real conversations and they were saying how their lives are changed and how they never thought they'd be there and how they're now quitting their job and they're staying in Asia and these stories, I was like, "Whoa, okay, this is more than I thought it was." I thought it was me sharing some tips and I realized it was actually transforming lives of people, of members. So that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to make this something that I'm actually actively trying to get people to find because I want people that need information to get the right information and have the ability to actually have a good foundation instead of finding something that will be lead them nowhere.
Jim Cirillo: Right. I See, well, wow. I mean what an amazing story. I'm just trying to absorb it all because like I can see your real sort of frustration where it's like, hey, I'm trying to find more like-minded people like myself to keep learning because you're into eCommerce, you're into kind of continually learning and trading ideas with people. But it wasn't out there. So you tried to find it, you started offering value and then people started finding you. I mean, what an interesting I guess looking back on it like what an interesting way to develop something like this, develop a real community and certainly it is transforming people. Because I felt when I first went to the I guess retreat in 2016 in Hawaii, I was kind of blown away honestly.
Jim Cirillo: I was pretty skeptical. I had a traditional career, I'm in the engineering world, corporate world, I know a ton about business and technology already. And I thought eCommerce stuff, there's a lot of scammy things online, like weird characters out there and whatever, if you start at just searching around, right. But I thought, well, let me take a chance, let me dive in and this would be a chance to actually meet some of these people to figure out how real it is. And actually when I got there and dropped in, I really saw a lot of things that kind of really blew me away. And this is just three years ago where people were at that point, like Facebook Live was not a real big deal.
Jim Cirillo: But people were doing a lot of YouTube videos, and capturing things, and podcasting and all this other it really was a lesson in all the new media, how people are getting connected in addition to the actual business lessons of dropshipping of eCommerce. It really opened my eyes to like, wow, there's a lot of layers to this whole thing. Just the real digital marketing techniques. The Google ad words, like all of this stuff came together in these retreats and it was just like, it really opened my eyes and I really felt transformed, there's something amazing going on here.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. And that's why I love these. That's why I love to meet in person because I don't know, for me at least it's different to bring that normal conversation when you see somebody's name pop pop up in a Facebook group, right. And maybe they say something like, I just launched my first Google campaign and got a sale. You're like, okay, cool, let me click like. But when you're having a conversation with four or five people in person and somebody says that and everybody else is like smiling, I'm like, "Oh, that's so awesome." It brings together not just like, I don't know how real it is, but it also just motivates everybody and the people that are getting results, it motivates them more.
Anton Kraly: People that are just like you said, popping in to see what this is all about, it motivates them to do other things. And I don't know, I think it's an important part of business in general. Like for any business obviously online is like where the money is made now, that's where it makes sense to market. But I do think that digital companies should try to mix in at least something in person because it really strengthens the relationships and I think builds the community even more.
Jim Cirillo: Right. For sure. And you know what? I like the way that you, again, kind of approach this whole thing and designed it as this lifestyle, sort of flavor where... I've been to tons of different conferences and trade shows in 16 different industries just for throughout my career.
Jim Cirillo: And really this is one of the few, maybe the only really that's designed specifically like this where it's sort of like half kind of presentational, technical knowledge and half just hanging out and having a good time. And what that allows is that you really get to know people and hear their stories versus just, well, I'm only going to see you for 45 minutes at a cocktail hour. I better pick your brain right now about your specific knowledge, that kind of keeps people's defenses up in a way or something? Right.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. And especially when we first did the retreat, I wasn't big into conferences or anything, but since this has grown, I've been to different events, other people's events and I can't take it like sitting in a conference room all day. Even if you're the most passionate person about whatever the topic at hand is. Sometime after launch, you got to just check out mentally, it's hard to stay there. And then after that if you want to, like you said, actually be networking with people. I mean your brains are already fried pretty much. So yeah. And that's why what we do, and this is actually our next retreat is going to be in September. We're going to be in Prague first time going to Europe with the group, which is awesome.
Anton Kraly: But what we do is, yeah the mornings we have the presentations, usually two to three of them depending on length. So just normal conference style presentation where you're learning, you're taking notes, we're doing a Q&A, then we have lunch together. And then like you said, we get on buses and we go somewhere and do something fun and everybody gets to know each other.
Anton Kraly: So I think the reason that that's how it started was because it was all the way in Asia and I knew how many people were just traveling out also. So of course if you're coming to Chiang Mai, you want to do the things that people do in Chiang Mai, right? You want enjoy it, you want see it.
Jim Cirillo: Right, for sure.
Anton Kraly: And then the added benefit was better networking. So definitely saw the value in it from that first year and just stuck with it.
Jim Cirillo: I see. And I didn't even ask you about like how you ended up in Asia in the first place. What was the stimulus that brought you out there. Because again, it was a sort of like early on conceptually I think even for most people now, I tell them about because I've been traveling more the last three or four years about kind of the digital nomads scene and not what's going on. And most just average people in my local town here look at me like what are you talking about? It's still not that widely known, but you were kind of driving this where you got this idea to go over there early on five, six, seven years ago at least.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, it was in 2012 when I first went out there. So basically it was just kind of good timing. I had was leasing an apartment at that time and a car and both the leases expired within the same week. And I was thinking like, okay, if I'm going to do like an extended trip, this is a good time to do it. Don't have anything back at home. So if I go and I like anywhere I can stay for as long as I want. So I booked a one way ticket to Thailand and my plan was three weeks, but I left it open because I was like, maybe I'll just hate it and come home in a week and maybe I'll like it and stay longer. But I figured three weeks and that trip lasted nine months.
Anton Kraly: But the reason I chose Asia back then and in Thailand was because actually again going back to the book, the four hour work week, when that book first came out there for a few years after, there was a forum. Tim Ferriss's blog and it got closed down probably around 2013. But there was an open forum where people were having conversations a lot about lifestyle design and a bunch of people were talking about Southeast Asia and how the cost of living is so good and how beautiful it is and how good the food is.
Anton Kraly: So I remember just seeing that and being like, that's interesting. I never would have thought to travel there, but this sounds cool. So let me go. And when I went there, I didn't even know what I was going to do. I remember I showed up in Bangkok, flew into Bangkok, went and stayed at some local hotel like in the worst part of town, the tourist area, where you can't sleep because it's party all night.
Anton Kraly: And I walked up and down the street and there was all the little tourism booths like they have. And I remember I just walked into one and I was like, yeah, I'm here maybe for a couple of weeks. Do you have any kinds of trips where I can go see different parts of the country? And the guy gave me a map and he was like, yeah, if you want to do this we'll take you through this city and this city and this city and you'll be up in Chiang Mai. And then when he said Chiang Mai, I remember thinking like, oh, one of the people that I used to talk to on the forum or one of the names I used to see on the forum the guy said he was in Chiang Mai. So I ended up reaching out to him. And that's Johnny who the biggest person in Chiang Mai, that brought everybody out there.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. So I remember I sent them him message. I'm like, "Hey, I'm on a train. I'm coming up there. If you're in town, let's meet up and get dinner." And yeah, we met up, he ended up telling me, oh, a new coworking space opened called Pun Space, which literally had just opened. And I was like, there's coworking like in the middle of the mountains in Thailand. I was like, all right, let me check it out. I will go there tomorrow.
Anton Kraly: And I went and I saw people from all over the world, all different ages. I saw people building eCommerce stores, people doing affiliate marketing, people that were programmers, like building their own softwares, people that were freelancers. And I was like, this is crazy. Like this is what I've been missing. It almost felt fake. So that experience, just meeting all those people made me think, let me stay here because I don't want to just be in town for two nights. Like there's something going on. So that's where I stayed for nine months.
Jim Cirillo: Right. Oh, that's amazing. So that's how you met Johnny. I never knew that. That's a great story.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, it was like, I remember it was through that forum and then we were friends on, this was like years later. So I think either he must've added me as a friend. There's something on Facebook, like maybe in, I don't even know, 2010 or something from that forum. And then I saw his Facebook posts and in that time, 2012 saying, I've been Thailand and posting photos in Chiang Mai. And I was like, oh, I don't know who this person is, but he's up there and I'm going to be there.
Jim Cirillo: Wow. What a cool discovery. Well, it reminds me a little bit like I had just a small kind of discovery like this in 2016, so like what kind of maybe really started my Reinvention was my main client had stopped paying me. And big corporate client and they owed me like 15, 18 grand and it was like 30 days late, 60 days late, 90 days late. I'm like, what is going on here? It was really like, I thought, well maybe the project's over, maybe I've got to sue these guys who knows if I'll ever get paid.
Jim Cirillo: And I was so pissed. And this is early 2016 so it was like February. And I thought you know what, I got to blow out of town. And I just happened to have a friend from high school who lives in Bangkok. And I thought you know what? I need to just really reset my mind. And I decided to go traveling for a month. I had never left and had taken a vacation like that solo vacation, certainly for that long a time ever.
Jim Cirillo: And I thought, let me just drop in. And when I got over there, my buddy Ed, he's like you're going to be here for a few weeks. Why don't we go up to Chiang Mai? And I had no idea what Chiang Mai was. I'm like, what are you talking about? So he's like, "Oh it's cool. It's up." He wanted to get out of Bangkok because it's always super-hot in Bangkok. It's a little bit cooler in Chiang Mai. So we go up there and actually keep pointed out when we were up there and he's like, yeah, I think there's like some bloggers that like to hang out here as travel bloggers. I think he called him and I saw him like people with their laptops. I'm like, Oh that's interesting whatever. I didn't really think much of it.
Jim Cirillo: And then I get back to the States and then that trip really blew my mind because all the people I met there really kind of opened myself up to like, man, I need to travel more. I need to do this more just general for my life. I get back, I start searching online. And I remember him telling about like people working online and Chiang Mai.
Jim Cirillo: So I start searching how to make money online and Chiang Mai just starts coming up. Right. If you do that search out there and Johnny’s podcast started coming up, felt like a boss. And then you started coming up because it's 2016 by now. So that's really what peaks kept reinforcing like hmm, maybe there's something to this right. Because just because I had happened to be there physically earlier-
Anton Kraly: Be there.
Jim Cirillo: ... In 2016.
Anton Kraly: It is hard to stumble upon. It's so different. It's not something most people are thinking about, they going to get into entrepreneurship. Yeah.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah. Right. I mean, it's completely bizarre. I tell people now and I've stopped kind of talking to people about it because if their mind's not on the right wavelength, I don't know what they think of me or whatever, they just have crazy ideas in their head.
Anton Kraly: After living in Chiang Mai, I lived in Vietnam for almost like three years amongst other places. But I've been back in the States now for like three years, three and a half years. And honestly like even to me, somebody that lived in Asia for four years, it sounds crazy now because I've been away from it for a while and just to think like, because the community's grown since I've left and just to think like what's actually happening. Even again for somebody that lived that life for a long time, it's still like, it gives me goosebumps. Like on the other side of the world, there's meetups almost every day. There's dinners almost every night with groups of entrepreneurs from all around the world that are building their own things while living in really an amazing location.
Jim Cirillo: Right. And I just don't think it's happening here in the US in the same way. Maybe because there's more distractions or whatever. Sure it happens a little pockets here and there, but it's just.
Anton Kraly: It's more distractions and it's more expensive and people they have to work more that's a big thing. Last summer I stayed for three months in Manhattan and I thought like, okay, this is going to be fun. Like I love New York city to begin with. But I thought not only that, but I'll be able to network with all these other entrepreneurs that are building big things. And what I quickly realized is they're all very busy and people aren't making much time for coffee and lunch and dinners.
Anton Kraly: They're have to work. So, yeah, it's a totally different way of thinking and approaching life. Honestly, I was more productive out there. Sometimes I know personally I used to think being around people that were always working on much bigger things and so focused with lead to maybe me doing the same, but I actually got more out of my time in Asia where I would work maybe for a couple hours in the morning and they got lunch with some friends, then work in the afternoon, then go meet up and smoke a shisha and hang out and just talk with five or six people.
Anton Kraly: All these ideas come up that you can implement. So totally different way of approaching things. But I think it's better.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, I think so too. And you mentioned something like about kind of just the pace of things. I think for me when I first started consulting in 2007 I quit my job. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Someone just called me kind of out of the blue and that's kind of turned into this consulting gig that's kind of sustained me for the last 10 or 12 years.
Jim Cirillo: But I purposely scheduled in like, I was so burnt out that I didn't want to take a job and I only told him I was going to be available like 20 hours a week max, because I needed to build some space in my life to like really think about what was going to be next or whatever.
Jim Cirillo: And since I started doing that, it's been like 10 or 12 years ago, I realized the value and the power of having that space. You are more productive, you have more clarity and you're able to sit back and if you just tweak this little direction, you're going in maybe half a degree over the next three years, it's going to have a massive impact, versus never having the space in your life to even sit down and think about it.
Anton Kraly: Yup. And that's like what you said too, it's a huge problem. Since you consulting, you have that ability for people that like are trapped in jobs. That's crazy, that they're not allowed to do that.
Jim Cirillo: They are not allowed right.
Anton Kraly: Like should mandatory maybe tell employees like listen two days a month these are days that you're working but you're not doing any work. You're not clicking buttons and doing the things that have to get done. Instead you're reflecting on those past three and a half weeks for where there's opportunity, for where things could be streamlined for what's next. Because that's where the ideas come from. Now when you're just doing what has to get done, when you're thinking about why you're doing certain things.
Jim Cirillo: Oh I totally agree. Yeah man. Oh it's just gives me chills. So even thinking about it, because this is such a... Once you kind of figured this stuff out for yourself, or you see it, or you get dropped into somewhere randomly, like Chiang Mai and you're like, wow, this is really going on and you can see how fruitful it is. It's pretty interesting to think about. Well, that makes me think about now that you just moved to North Carolina, right?
Anton Kraly: I did. Yep. Yeah. About about a month ago.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah. Physically where you're living, what's drawn you out there. And how are you thinking about being in North Carolina? I know you're a little more settled down now because you're married and I think you have family now.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. So originally we moved back about three and a half years ago, but went to Austin, Texas for the first three plus years. And the reason I came back is because when I was living in Vietnam, in Saigon, basically we were growing as a company and I was hiring more people and I was hiring a lot of people from the States and they were moving out to Asia and I literally rented a coffee shop out there that had went out of business and we made that our office and none of it was legal.
Anton Kraly: So I has US employees, I had an office space for all of us. And I was like, this is in a way to grow not, not if we really want to grow. So I thought, okay, let me give it a few years. We'll come back to the States, chose Austin because had some friends out there. To be honest, it wasn't my favorite place in the world. I definitely not somewhere I saw myself long-term. while I was living there thought we did have a baby.
Anton Kraly: I got an 18 month old son now. So I'm thinking, okay, like what's next? Where do we want to go? And decided on North Carolina, because I am from the East coast, from New York. I actually had lived in North Carolina for a couple of years prior to Asia because the weather is better than New York and I can golf all year and I also have some family here and just helps with the baby. So that was really the decision to come this direction. I love the weather. I really liked the scenery. I liked that I could drive a couple hours to the beach or in the mountains and yeah, just seems like a good quality of life for what I'm looking for right now. Also, the Charlotte Airport is pretty legit. There's like direct flights all over Europe and it's an easy place to travel from.
Jim Cirillo: Right, right. I got you. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, Austin's kind of interesting. That's one of the places that kind of popped up on my radar screen in terms of like technology for example, there's like the three sort of technology cities or areas. Boston, East coast, Austin, Texas, Silicon Valley of course. But I'd never really, I guess really wanted to live in either of those places.
Jim Cirillo: I've traveled there a bunch and like I've thought about it over the years, but now where I'm at now where I can kind of manage my lifestyle better. I like being in Northeast Ohio here where I am, during the summers and then now I just travel more during the winter when it gets cold, like I can go to Asia or wherever. But yeah. Cool. Yeah. I was curious why you ended up in North Carolina because I knew you were only in Austin for a short time. I thought maybe you're getting ready to go back overseas or something. Like, maybe you miss being in Asia or something.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, we're doing an extended trip over there in the winter. Now my wife is Vietnamese, so we went back last year for, I think about a month. So her family and everybody can hang out with the baby. So we're going to do the same, probably pretty much every year. There'll be at least one month that I'll be in Asia, which I love obviously because get to connect with everybody and enjoy that side of the world.
Anton Kraly: And then, yeah, still plenty of traveling. One of the things with Austin was the summers there are just so disgustingly hot. That's why last summer I mentioned we're in Manhattan, which is hot in the summer too, but nowhere near Austin. So yeah, we do kind of the same, pick the place that I think you feel most comfortable for most of the year. And then when you want to go, it's not hard when you control where you work from.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, exactly. So, well, think about that what else do you have going on in terms of like you do DSL, it's a big part of what you're doing, but I know you had some other companies out there or endeavors that you were doing like performance marketing or other eCommerce things. Are those still around? Are you still concentrating on those or what are your thoughts in that regard this days?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, so besides we do have the eCommerce side of the business that actually is scaling right now. So that's something we're growing. A lot of it has to do with you know what, we should do another podcast in like six months and I'll tell you like the next stage of eCommerce and what we're working on because now it's still very early on.
Jim Cirillo: Okay.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, that'd be cool to do an update on how things are going, but yeah, we're putting a lot of our team's effort and focus into that. The eCommerce side of things. I do have a podcast now called eCommerce Lifestyle and performance marketer. That was the brand where we were sharing. Maybe more stuff that would apply to like info and software marketing as well as eCommerce.
Anton Kraly: We put some effort into that for a couple of years and then stopped. And basically what happened is we looked at team output and effort into each project. We looked at how things were growing and what things were doing better and what things weren't and kind of too much effort for too little results. So that's cut off and there's a lot of things like that.
Jim Cirillo: Right? Well, you've got to keep experimenting. I mean that's kind of what being an entrepreneur is about is sort of you've got to get a taste for something and see if it's really going to work or not. Well, I'm super interested in kind of just seeing what you have going forward. So yeah, maybe I will get back in contact with you in a few months. That'd be cool to see what you're doing. I am interested in a little bit in your podcasts, while I like listen to your podcast, but I know you're using anchors that write for your podcast distribution system or how you're recording.
Anton Kraly: Yeah, I am. I love them. So far it's been great because it's free, but the main reason I started using them is because I've thought about doing a podcast for a long time and the technical side is just something I never wanted to add in, like having an SOP for it and someone on my team to edit and upload and cut things. So the way that I do mind is I either record into the microphone on the computer or typically I'm recording straight into my phone into the anchor app. Then I click a button and it's pushed on to like 10 different platforms for listening. So yeah, I use them for ease.
Jim Cirillo: I got you. Okay. Yeah. So you like it. I mean it's a little bit, I think they've been a little bit controversial in the podcast world in terms of like, do you own your content and all these kinds of things. And if you're like a real creative person trying to developing a show, I think for the stuff you're doing, I think it's the perfect solution really, because you're just trying to share a little bit of motivation and tips and those things are always changing. So, yeah. That's cool. I think it's the... How did you settle on that, did you have to search up a while to figure that out for yourself?
Anton Kraly: Trying to think who told me about it. Somebody must've recommended it to me because I remember just being like, oh, all I have to do is have an app on my phone. And then I signed up, I downloaded the app and I signed in with my Gmail address and I clicked record and then I clicked publish and it worked. So I think it was recommendation. But yeah, I think that there are some things that I don't like about it. When you publish podcasts and let's say somebody shares a link directly to the podcast, let's say somebody shares an iTunes link for a podcast episode on Facebook, the metadata that it pulls in will say eCommerce Lifestyle with Anton Kraly, a podcast by Anchor or something like that.
Anton Kraly: So you don't have the options to have complete control over that. So I do wish that they had like a premium version that gave you more controls, a paid one be more than to do that. I know Spotify bought them a couple of months ago, so maybe that's in their plan, but yeah, we'll see.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, those things are kind of just being worked out. There's some growing pains and stuff in terms of how all this stuff is rolling out. So I'm actually going to podcast movement in Orlando coming up here in August, so maybe I'll find out, talk to people down there about us. So, yeah, podcasts and things kind of an interesting. When I first started got into DSL. I was building a store of course because that's what you do. And I was really learned a ton of cool things. But I kind of there was things that happened right when I was about to kind of really start driving traffic to the store that kind of killed my momentum for it actually was, I think it was in 2017 and my aunt had died, I got pneumonia.
Jim Cirillo: It was like around the holidays was like a really depressing time of the year. So this is why I'm not doing my store right now. I understand, sorry. I feel like I'm in confession right now. But what happened was and I had already booked a trip to go to Asia mid, late January. I was already planning for that and I thought, well, I want to keep going because it's helping me change my mind, my outlook, and I'll either work on the store while I'm there or when I get back I'll definitely buckle down and do it. But during that trip I was with my buddy hanging out, we went up to Chiang Rai and were knocking around all over the place. I was kind of thinking about, well, am I going to be happy really running in the stores that really want to want to do, or what do I want to keep learning about technologies or whatever.
Jim Cirillo: And it was really getting a lot out of listening to podcasts and discovering all this stuff and discovering people's stories, which is the mind blowing part of like what's really going on. Right. And so I thought, well, maybe I'll just start a podcast. I was joking around when we were taking pictures up in Chiang Rai. So actually the album cover of me in front of the clock tower in Chiang Rai in Thailand. That's what's on the cover of the podcast.
Anton Kraly: That's awesome.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah. And that was before I had a name or any idea of even starting the podcast. I just thought, oh, let's just take some funny pictures. Maybe I'll start a podcast someday. And that's exactly what happened. So anyways because it's allowing me to keep continuing learning the digital marketing side and still figuring this stuff out.
Jim Cirillo: But also connecting with people I want to talk to and really providing value out there for just like the value I was getting and still get from listing all these things. I mean, it's amazing. So anyways, thinking about technology kind a few more questions before we get out of here. A few things I liked just to put people's minds, brains about in terms of technology and the way things are moving these days. Since you're not really a technologist by heart, you're more of a marketer or business person. Right? Is there something about, how do you think about technology and how things are changing so quickly? And how you approach it, is it overwhelming or is it super fun for you to keep engaging with it? How do you think about it kind of on a daily basis when things are moving so quickly?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, no, I definitely, I enjoy it and I put a lot of time into studying what's happening and what's on the horizon and what's already available. Back when I first started with eCommerce technology, every single little thing that I would want to have done or implemented to my stores or to my emails or anything was a huge project with developers that costs thousands of dollars. And now it's either somebody for a $100 project or a click of a button and an app installed. So the way that... I see it kind of two ways. One way, there's so many new things that are available kind of to try or to use that it's overwhelm and I think too many is a bad thing. Like you don't need them all. So you don't want to get into a situation where you're doing everything and anything when it comes to your eCommerce store.
Anton Kraly: On the other hand, I love Shopify as you know hands down my favorite eCommerce platform and what I love about them is not only like do they have the best customer service but they are advancing eCommerce technology. It's just light years ahead of everybody else. So like the way that a Shopify store even works now compared to a few years ago is night and day. If you use Shopify payments, which is basically, it's a white label of Stripe for payment processing that they use. Now you can accept Google pay, you can expect Apple pay, your website will recognize if somebody is on your website, on an iPhone and if they're using an iPhone and have Apple Pay, that button will just pop up and they can buy from you. And I think they did a comparison, it was like five seconds versus a minute of filling out forms.
Anton Kraly: So things like that. They have built in currency conversions, so where you are in the world, the right currency will show up, but not only that, they have it built in now. In Canada people use primarily different payment methods or a different type of card than in the US, than in Germany, than in China. So it recognizes that and it shows you the payment options that are most relevant based on where you are in the world.
Anton Kraly: So I love it. Again, these are things that like I would have only dreamed of back in the day and now they're just popping up every single day. The other thing I'll say about like technology, a big thing that I have seen changing that I like but might be scary in the long run is how automated advertising is becoming now. And this is primarily on Facebook where we used to have at least one person on our team that only did Facebook ads, that was their role.
Anton Kraly: Facebook ads, breaking them up in our ad accounts by every single demographic you could think of. Men, women, main cities, mobile, desktop, right hand column, main feed. And we did that because that's what you used to have to do to get the best results. And the way it works now is we can basically just say, hey, Facebook, here's a photo of his thing, run it. And they do and it works. And what's good about it is it's a lot less work. But I think what's going to happen as more people start to use all of the automation like platforms like Facebook provide is that it's just kind of level out. Like costs will rise and you'll kind of be stuck there because they'll have all the database needed and basically people that are profitable will be and people that aren't, won't be able to play the game anymore. So we'll see. That's one thing that scares me about technology though. It's become as far on the advertising side, it's getting less about skill and more about the AI on Facebook and Google.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah. I was just going to say yes, the data analytics like that exists now, right. Because all of this stuff is visible to Facebook or whatever. And they can really just throw a lot of data analytics at it and say this is exactly who you should be targeting instead of you having to choose. Yeah. That's very interesting.
Anton Kraly: Yeah. And even beyond that, they'll do... If you upload like a 15 second video, they'll make different versions of it automatically. They'll test all different cover photos from it for which one's best. You can give it like five headlines and five descriptions and it just constantly cycles through them and finds winners almost instantaneously so totally different than what it used to be. Even just like a year or two ago.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, I was going to say. Wow, that's pretty amazing. Well, I'm looking forward to, in terms of just technology stuff that you said, Shopify to the augmented reality stuff that's coming. So that's super interesting to me because I see like the whole, in the next two to three years probably max every mobile like phone experience is going to be have some augmented reality part to it. When you're just looking through your phone, just like what was it the Pokémon game that came out a few years ago, whatever. Right.
Anton Kraly: I just did it. In the new home here I just bought a rug.
Jim Cirillo: Oh you did?
Anton Kraly: Yeah. And I held my phone up with my living room and I dragged the rug and it was on the floor under my couch and my coffee table and I thought, what is this? How did this happen? But yeah, that's reality now.
Jim Cirillo: It's amazing. Well think about all this stuff and you've been immersed in this now for a while and I would say you're a thought leader in terms of just lifestyle design, location, independence, eCommerce, those types of things. But going forward or maybe like on a daily basis, like I'm curious to see what's going to be coming here, like you said, in six months. How do you keep your mind open to continue to trying things or we're pivoting it into different niches as time moves on because I think that's a real skill or something that people really needed to keep thinking about for themselves and keep developing within themselves. How do you do it?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, I think one thing that I'm kind of, I don't want to say lucky, but one thing that that's good for me that works out is I really do enjoy business. I really do enjoy making websites and I enjoy looking into other companies and trying to figure out what they're doing. And I enjoy testing our ads and I don't have much of a risk tolerance. So like honestly, if it was up to me, like when I'm working by myself and don't have a team, I'm willing to basically always like pivot and try something completely new because if it doesn't work it's a learning experience. But yeah, it might just be a personality thing where what I enjoy this more than going and sitting on the beach for a day. I'd rather see what I can do in our ads to 2X our results.
Jim Cirillo: I see. Well, yeah, that's interesting. And I think it's like I said is I think about the world, it's kind of I was at a kind of a pivotal point in my life a few years ago. I think now that I'm kind of just pivoting seeing the world different now where I was kind of looking ahead thinking like as you see technology moving and see the world moving in these different directions. Like where I want to be in a few years? Do I want to be in the mix of all this stuff or do I want to be sort of irrelevant in some fashion because I stay in this lane over here that's not moving as fast or whatever. So that's kind of how I think about why you want to kind of continue to keep your mind open and tasting and trying different things.
Jim Cirillo: And if you continue to do that, I don't think the risk is there. I think people get scared and they think it's risky. But once you start doing it and kind of get over on the other side. Once you break through to the other side it's not as risky to approach it.
Anton Kraly: No the risk is when you don't do anything. Sorry.
Jim Cirillo: Yeah, exactly. That's totally right. Well, I got one final question for you usually I ask people about Reinvention Revelation, but I'm not going to ask you about that because you're like presenting reinvention to all of us. Like you're really transforming a lot of people with all this stuff that you do. And so for you, I wanted to ask what do you feel urgent about right now in terms of like the way the world is spinning or maybe just in your personal life in terms of like, man, I really need to learn more about this or I need to take more time to do that. What are you thinking? What's urgent for you these days?
Anton Kraly: That's a good question. I'm trying to think of anything outside of the ordinary. Yeah, because it changes so much. I'm trying to, right now I'd probably would have said the same thing if you would have asked me like last year or even a year before that. But a lot of what I focus on every day is still trying to simplify even a lot like you mentioned like performance marketer earlier and that was kind of one of many things that we had been doing over the past three or four years.
Anton Kraly: Some stuff that's public facing, somethings that's internal but like a lot of stuff that we have done and added in, just wasn't necessary and pulled away from resources. So I would say more than anything, just always asking that question, is this actually helping us move towards the goal? And if it's not 100% clear that it is just getting rid of it. So I'm focused on cutting rather than adding.
Jim Cirillo: I see. I like that. Well, again, it goes back to kind of having this space to sit back and really consider those things. It kind of helps you just keep clarity and keep focused. Cool. Well Anton is awesome having you on the show. If people are interested in finding DSL Drop Ship Lifestyle, et cetera, or getting contact with you, where would you send them or where would you want to get in touch?
Anton Kraly: Yeah, sure. The best place would just be the website dropshiplifestyle.com. Everything is linked off there. I do like a weekly video and all my contact info is on the contact tab and if you want to hear me rant by myself for 10 minutes at a time on the podcast, that's ecommercelifestyle.com or just search eCommerce Lifestyle and any podcast player.
Jim Cirillo: Right. I got you. Yeah, and I'm sure that if you search YouTube, et cetera, you'll come up there and you're all over the web, which is great. So, well, thanks so much. I really appreciate it and hopefully maybe talk to you in six months to see what's going on.
Anton Kraly: Definitely. Let's do it. Thank you.
Jim Cirillo: Okay. Thank you for listening to JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast. If you want to hear more, join our mailing list at JimJimsreinventionrevolution.com. See you next time. And remember, the revolution has just begun, so dig in, and race the process of reinvention and start realizing the success that you've always dreamed of.
Anton Kraly: Hey everybody. Anton here again, and I hope you enjoyed that episode and that conversation as much as I did. If you got value, please do me a huge favor and click the link in the show notes that will take you over to the JimJim's Reinvention Revolution Podcast, and leave him a review because he brought the great questions, he changed up the topics, he made this conversation possible. And as always, if you're brand new here, you want to know more about what it is we do and how you can build your own highly profitable semi-automated online store. Be sure to visit dropshipwebinar.com. Thank you everybody. Appreciate you and I'll talk to you in the next episode. Bye.